Loree:

I am very excited to be here with Dr. Mary Kelly, retired commander in the United States Navy. So yay, a Navy veteran as well. And Mary, I saw on LinkedIn that you were recently inducted into the speaker Hall of Fame. Congratulations.

 

Mary:

That was so crazy. There’s only 255 people who have been inducted and among them is General Colin Powell, President Ronald Reagan.

 

Loree:

Wow.

 

Mary:

And somehow they got Mary Kelly in there. And I’m really not sure how that happened. They mailed me this big thing. And I was afraid to open the box, because I thought it’s gonna have somebody else’s name on it.

 

Loree:

Oh, wow. Well, I mean, from everything I’ve seen, you are an amazing speaker. I’m not surprised. And I’m just really thrilled that you were honored with that recognition. Very cool to see.

 

So I’m really excited to have you on the show today, because you’ve done so much work around the topic of leadership; you are a leader, you know, 20 years, I think over 20 years in the Navy. You graduated from the Naval Academy, and we’re a professor there, as well as at the Air Force Academy. And in fact, were instructor of the year at the Air Force Academy. So like, you know, what you’re talking about when it comes to leadership. You’ve recently written a book about succession, which is this topic that, you know, when you talk about leadership, that’s not something that I think is typically top of mind. And so I’d love to hear more about what intrigued you about this topic, and why you decided to write a book about it?

 

Mary:

Well, leadership transitions happen all the time in most companies, organizations, and corporations simply don’t plan for them. And part of the problem is, if you’re that person at the top, you mostly don’t plan for your own departure from that job, because you’re focusing on that job, right? Keep in mind, of all the CEOs in the United States, 40% of them last 18 months or less, so transitions happen all the time. And of course, we saw this in the Navy. In the military, you’re only assigned to a base a command or a job for two to three years. And so a lot of my civilian organizations say why would a military person be concerned about succession planning? And the short answer is because we prepare for changes of jobs at all levels, all the time, and a lot of civilian organizations simply don’t. So the more I started researching this, the more I saw, there was a need for not only planning and thinking about building your leadership bench, and again, filling all the positions throughout the organization. But then how do you build a sustainable, viable, and wildly successful organization that can withstand things like, you know, a global pandemic, and all kinds of crazy things that happen?

 

The idea is you want to create a structure so that if you don’t show up, everything runs perfectly smoothly; everything runs well, because everyone is aligned with your mission, your vision, your goals, and they are trained sufficiently to know what to do. We’re used to being replaceable. Many people, especially if they founded the business, or their heart and soul has been in that business for decades, they don’t want to think that way. So most businesses simply don’t think about the challenge of the transition crisis and change when it comes time to replacing people.

 

Loree:

Why would you say that succession planning is necessary because we’re not always going to have crazy events like a pandemic happen; it seems necessary now, but otherwise, why would you want to do that?

 

Mary:

Right? Because even before the pandemic started, the average millennial was only staying in their job for 2.6 years. And so before all the baby boomers get all mad about that, hey, wait a minute, baby boomers, you are only seeing in your jobs on average. Now on average, there are some people who stay there for decades. So change is happening at an accelerated pace, and if your business was well set up to weather changes, and to be flexible and adaptable, then COVID… yes, it’s a challenge, but it should not kill your company… and in some cases, it is, because people did not know what to do next. We’re six months into this and there are still people standing there like a deer in the headlights thinking, oh, gosh, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Well, the answer is, you have to react. But better than that, you have to be proactive. So if you’re being inactive, chances are really good your business, everybody and everybody around you does not know what to do. Part of leadership is making sure that everybody around us knows what to do, especially when we’re not there. If your organization falls to pieces the first day that you’re not there, that’s not a very well built organization. And, you know, we think our CEOs and the people in charge are planning for the next set of leaders to come in. And I have to tell you, the more research I did, the more it became apparent that that was not the case. So if you’re the person in charge, and all of a sudden somebody says, Hey, would you like to come over and run, my company will pay you four times as much? You kind of leave and you don’t care so much.

 

You know, the biggest scenario that we’re finding now is that CEOs are seven to eight years older now than they were 20 years ago. And here’s why: they simply have to know more… they have to know more about people about budgets and regulations, those top three areas means it’s just harder to be the person in charge right now. And many of those people say, Well, I want to work till I’m about 67 years old, that sounds good. But the average American has to retire at age 63, either because of their own health challenges, to take care of a family member’s health challenges, or because some other situation changes in their life. So if all of a sudden, you know, your spouse, your partner, your kid gets really sick, you leave that job, and you don’t care if you get a big promotion, you don’t care. If you yourself are diagnosed with a terrible disease, you kind of don’t care. All of a sudden, people think that the person at the top is thinking about succession planning, and they’re not. And this of course, reverberates down the organization to not only those people in the other senior positions, wondering, okay, so who steps in just in case, but it also impacts other opportunities throughout the organization. Hey, if you don’t know that you’re being hired for that vice presidential job, then when somebody else offers you a job, you take it because nobody’s told you, Hey, you know, Loree, we’re really thinking hard about putting into that VP job. And we want to train you up for about six months, we’ll probably take nine months before you get it. But you know, would you be interested in that? And you go, yeah, of course, I would. Well, if nobody’s had that conversation with you, and somebody else says, Hey, we’re hiring for an assistant VP job, and we’re not really sure we’re going to land. But you know, we’ll pay you $10,000 more a year, you’re going to take it because nobody has had that conversation. And this is where a lot of leadership, they don’t see every single role in the organization as being important. And you and I both know, you do not get to fly planes off carrier decks without paying attention to the person who put the chocks in front of the tires.

 

Loree:

Right, right. Yeah, I’m curious, why don’t companies have these conversations? What’s keeping them from being more transparent about this reality?

 

Mary:

I think that’s such a good question. And I think the answer, of course, varies based on supervisor, manager and leader to each other. But the common trends we found is that many very senior people cannot even fathom a day that they are not at work, because that has become their identity, their work, their title, their job, the people to be around gives them their purpose. It’s the reason they get out of bed every morning, they founded the company, or they built that company, or they love that company. So they don’t really think about a time when they’re not the person whose name is on the door or the desk or both. So that’s problematic. And then some leaders are very threatened. And you’ve seen this as well, when all of a sudden you realize your employee is way smarter than you. And it looks like they might be going in for your job, and they’re going to get it all of a sudden, you kind of feel a little bit threatened instead of promoting that person. Yeah, so that they are more value to the organization, which is kind of how we were taught. But a lot of people don’t feel that way. And you and I have both worked for bosses in the military and out who get real threatened when they think oh, gosh, that person Loree is way smarter than me therefore I should feel threatened about that. We’ve all seen that. And this, unfortunately, is more common than not. So I think there’s sort of that that founder fear that mindset, that’s a problem. There’s also the aspect of Oh gosh, that realization that I am replaceable, and that can actually be depressing for some people and and on the other side of that, what they don’t realize is if you cannot be promoted and if you’re not replaceable… then you can’t be promoted, you know, we need you in that job. So you’ve always got to be training for your next replacement. And that’s not always in the corporate culture. And this is where I think many leaders if you’re not being honest about the career path of your people, and I have, I’ve created a series of forms for this. Because many people, again, don’t know how to start that conversation.

 

I think this was where you were alluding to, or directly or indirectly, in your question is, you know, how do you start this conversation? And for many people, we have the yearly performance evaluation, but that’s the only piece of paper we have to guide your career path. And we as leaders have to take a proactive stance to not only the future of the organization, but the future of the people who are in the organization. So I have a form it’s an online form or five minute plans, like one page, it’s called the five minute plan to solve whatever problem. One of these forms is the leadership promotion plan. And it’s how you have the conversation with either your boss say, Hey, boss, this is what I’m looking at, what do I need to be doing more of so that I’m better prepared for increasing roles and responsibilities, or it’s something that you as the boss can use with some of your employees by saying, hey, I want to make sure we are grooming you for the right job and the right role and responsibility in the future. So what do you want to do, and then it assesses the skill sets of what we need for that next job. And then it allows both the employer and the employee to put in place a plan that will get them there. And that I think it’s a hard conversation, because again, this isn’t in management, one on one school. And that’s why I think it’s hard.

 

Loree:

I love that you take something that is, you know, so important and strategic, but you’re making it very practical and accessible by a five minute form, you know, that’s something that anyone can do. I mean, how much time do we waste on social media? Unfortunately, maybe it’s just me, but um, you know, definitely being able to have those conversations is important. I wanted to ask you, you know, you talked a little bit about the military and succession planning and how it’s just baked into what we do, you know, the commanding officer of an organization has an executive officer, and that person is typically the one that’s going to step up. And, you know, there are different ways of having succession within an organization. But we also go into our jobs in the military, knowing it’s only going to be, you know, 18 months, maybe three years max that you’re in a particular role. Have you ever seen any companies or civilian organizations that enforce term limits like that? Is that a successful way to help leaders really focus on doing a good job while they’re there? I’m just kind of curious, because I’ve never seen that outside of the military where you know, going in, you’re only going to be there for three years and so, you know, hope you’re gonna make the most of it.

 

Mary:

Right. And the idea is, you’re not only expected to show up and do a great job, but you’re also expected to learn in that job for what’s going to help you for your next job. And that I think, is a critical difference. For a while there were a few fortune 500 companies and in their leadership program, they would have you work in different divisions and departments for six months at a time to really learn that aspect of the company. And then they would move you around based on how well you did in those six months. And the total program was about three years. And I thought that was a really, really good idea. But for us, you know, you have to think about if all of your people are moving every 18 months, two years, three years that looks like and what people don’t understand is that means that’s 33 to 50% turnover every single year. And what that means you have to be constantly training, you have to be constantly reiterating your vision, you have to be constantly focusing on where you need people to go. And you have to be constantly reiterating those expectations of what success means. And if you ask a lot of people in organizations, you say, Hey, you know, what, what’s the vision around here? People will say, well, I think it’s on a plaque in the bathroom. I think maybe it’s on the lanyard, that’s around my neck. Do you look at it? Like, what’s the vision around you, they’re like, um, I think it’s on my card I’m supposed to wear with my name tag, but it’s not ingrained. And that’s what makes it very difficult to implement a long term very viable succession plan. Everybody has to know about it. And everybody has to understand that we’re investing in great training for our people. Now, not everybody will stay and we get that. But we’re investing in great training and putting together the effort. That means the organization goes on and is successful into the future. And that means spotting great talent. I always said that when I could start my own company, I was going to hire people who were just great talent and find a place to put them afterwards. John Kotter put that into his book on leadership as well. He’s like, you know, just get the people on the bus, you can figure out where they sit later. And I do that, because when you find a great talented person, you hang on to them. Now what employees need to understand now is that employers are in the driver’s seat, when it comes time to hiring… a year ago, it was not this way, a year ago, employees didn’t have to work too hard in order to get hired didn’t have to work too hard in order to be considered successful. Now the rules have changed. A year ago, if somebody could fog a mirror, you hire them. And then up, because the numbers of people who are ghosting their employers was crazy high, people just leave for lunch and never come back. But now, what we’re seeing is that with the unemployment, of course, it rose over the summer, and then it just dipped down this past week. But we are seeing that employers now have the upper hand when it comes time to hiring, which means employees have to be the ones to take control over making themselves marketable for their employment, they have to stay up on skills, they have to be the ones pushing to go to training, maybe that means they’re taking classes at night at the local college or getting that certification through an association, whatever it looks like, so that the employees are maintaining their skills in order to be competitive.