Loree:

I would love to hear a little bit about your own leadership journey. And you know, what made you decide to join the Navy and basically how you got to where you are today?

 

Gene:

Well, that’s not as easy a question to answer as some might think. And I think it is a journey, and there’s some evolution that has to occur. I think back to Boy Scouts, and I grew up in Florida for my sort of later childhood years, and there was a group called the Sea Scouts or Sea Explorers.

 

Loree:

Yeah, I’ve heard of that.

 

Gene:

Yeah it’s kind of like the next generation of Boy Scouts, but then it had a maritime focus. But there were opportunities in that setting to be in charge of things, activities, or a boat. And then I got into Offshore Sailing and high school and college had the good fortune to be introduced to people that owned boats; it’s always better to have somebody else that owns the boat. But this guy had three boats that raced offshore, and there were a lot of opportunities there to see different kinds of leadership in competitive situations. And so that that sort of resonated with me. And certainly, going into the Navy, you’re introduced to it very quickly, and you’re sort of thrown into it almost before you’re ready to have responsibility for something that you don’t really have the technical skill to oversee. But there are people around you who do and you have to learn how to figure that out. And I know you’ve had that experience, and it’s a great training ground and learning opportunity, but that’s a fairly traditional type of leadership. It’s organizational, very position-oriented. As I have matured, and grew through military leadership positions, I came to the corporate world with a different understanding of what leadership was. And I saw leadership applied differently. And I think that has sort of allowed me to evolve in my thinking about what leadership really is, and, and it’s not just about sort of the mechanical of making things happen. Here’s your mission is your set of objectives here, your people that you work with, there’s a lot more to it.

 

Loree:

I was curious about how people have the military who get out and then become civilian leaders, like how you see the difference between leadership in the military versus leadership in the civilian or corporate world?

 

Gene:

An observation that I experienced was in the military. Everybody has a common understanding of what the objective is. And I don’t see that same common understanding of what the objective is in corporate, in politics, in general. And so I think a substantial amount of energy has to be put into bringing the group along to what are we really trying to accomplish here? And, you know, influencing it in a different way. I have come to appreciate the degree of influence that’s really involved in moving people to different positions, that sort of influence wasn’t necessarily required in the naval leadership or military leadership to the same degree. That was my observation.

 

Loree:

Yeah, that’s, um, it’s interesting. You mentioned influence. One of my favorite questions to ask guests is about the first time it typically in their childhood that they realized that they could influence others because that is such a huge part of being an effective leader. And you mentioned the the sea scouts, I don’t know if it was true. That at that time that you learned about influence or maybe even before, but can you think of any examples from your childhood when you didn’t realize, Oh, hey, I can actually get people to do something?

 

Gene:

You know, I’m not sure it was influence at the time, but you know, thinking to just Boy Scouts and Sea Scouts, knowing that somebody had put me in charge meant that I could direct the activity. So I didn’t recognize it for what it was in its time was positional leadership that was bestowed to me for whatever reason, I’m trying to think of the term of patrol or a platoon of Boy Scouts might be 10. We divide them into groups of three and four, and one boy is in charge. It’s, I think it’s a first experience, but it’s not necessarily the model that one would want to follow.

 

Loree:

He has almost like, they’re the person who’s gonna get in trouble if things don’t go well.

 

Gene:

I mean, I think that’s an early exposure to it. But as I mentioned, operating racing sailboats. I mean, there’s a little bit of a hierarchy there. There’s only one person in charge on any boat. And it’s the same on a ship, right? It’s ultimately somebody who’s in charge. But that hierarchy, that understanding of an organization is very much a part of how I view situations now when I go in to help businesses with their particular business need. Being able to figure out what is really happening here and what should be happening here. I definitely fall back on that ability to see an organization and bring order to it.

 

Loree:

Yeah, how about when you were growing up? Were there any people who were leadership models for you? Any role models?

 

Gene:

Oh, for sure. In fact, they had a key role in my deciding to pursue a Navy career. Initially, three people come to mind, my father certainly, he had served in the Navy during the time of the Korean War, though not in Korea, but on a ship. And he had credited his success with the strong start that the Navy experience had given him. I had an uncle who was a little bit older, who had served in World War II and actually flew planes off carriers. You know, if you think about backup carrier aviation was a different animal in World War II; he had stayed in the reserves, and had done quite well. He was quite successful in the business world, had left the Navy, from his time went to John Hancock Insurance and rose to become the chairman of John Hancock. That was a very present person in my life and an example of what was possible in this country. And then a third was, I mentioned the person who owned several offshore sailboats. He was a pilot for at the time, it was National airlines. And then I think they were bought by Pan-Am, neither of which is around anymore. But being a commercial pilot was pretty cool when I was young. And he had been a naval officer and a naval pilot, and, and had stayed in the reserves. And he also credited his professional successes with his time in the Navy. And those three things, those three people, you know, sort of being in my life in that age span of 15 to 18, they had a real influence on me. And I knew I wanted to go into the Navy, at least for a few years and see what it was like, and that happens to many. I couldn’t find a good reason to leave. Pretty exciting career.

 

Loree:

Nice. And tell me a little bit more about what guided your decisions. Like once you were in the Navy, what types of roles did you do? What were some of the lessons that you had out of your time in the Navy?

 

Gene:

I was on ships, and I knew I wanted to be on ships, cruisers, and destroyers. My first ship was a frigate, out of Mayport, Florida. And I’ll tell you that the impact of that first Captain on me, and I think on on many that that first experience of interacting with a Command leader was extremely positive. That person saw something in me and invested in me and, you know, helped develop me and got me started on a track to success. And not everybody gets that experience. In some ways. That’s luck. So a little bit of timing and a little bit of taking advantage of opportunity when they’re presented.

 

Loree:

I was lucky in that I had some really great commanding officers in the beginning in flight training, and then I had one that was really not good. And then had one that was amazing. And so I completely hear you. I mean, they really set the tone for your experience as a junior officer. And you know, even as a department head, you know, having a really good Skipper makes a huge difference.

 

Gene:

For sure, I had a warrant officer told me early in my career, he said, you rarely get too in a row of anyone, you know, really good or really bad. And there might have been a little bit of truth to that. It was sort of a harsh assessment of how as a captain performing, but I came to learn from all of them and in different ways, and then ultimately had opportunities to be one of myself. And, you know, they certainly are part of the shaping experience good, or bad.

 

Loree:

Yeah, there’s absolutely lessons to be learned from bad leadership as well as good leadership.

 

Gene:

Yeah, yeah. Amen.

 

Loree:

What would you consider the best leadership advice you’ve received?

 

Gene:

I would say, it’s not necessarily that I have received, but some that I have absorbed. And that is to be more open. I can think back to my earlier career days and recognize that things were fairly black and white. There wasn’t a lot of room for gray in my mind. And I came to learn just with maturity, that there are some gray zones, and there is room to maneuver. And it doesn’t have to be that rigid. When you get out of the military, and have opportunities to interact in business, and just in life, it’s much easier to see that some of the basic assumptions about what’s right and wrong, aren’t universally held like they are in the military. And so that, you know, ability to be more open and understand that somebody is coming from a completely different background and has a different vision and understanding of what’s important, what should be valued, and where we’re trying to go with something; that takes a whole different style than the fairly rigid methodology.

 

Loree:

Do you think your leadership style has evolved over time, as you’ve you know, after having your career in the Navy, and then now being a leader in business? Do you feel like you are a different leader now because of that recognition, like to be more open?

 

Gene:

For sure. No, no doubt about it. And something that I have only recently really come to accept as I’ve been a consultant helping companies at their senior levels, and driving the direction they might want to go. It took me a little while to transition from being deferential in my presentation of information to conveying that. I’m the expert here to tell you where to go. And I have the competence to tell you where to go. And you can take that guidance or not. But I’m here to give it to you. And I want to give it to you that approach isn’t necessarily able to come out in the military environment. There’s just an ingrained deference to senior leadership. And, you know, frankly, somebody I admired tremendously was, was General Mattis. And I was excited to see him move into the position as Secretary of Defense for a lot of reasons. But I came to see that he clung to that differential treatment of seniors that I’m not sure he fully appreciated that he was in a place now where, yes, there’s difference, but you have to you have to be forceful as well. I’m not saying I know what was going on in the rooms. But I think it’s a risk that anybody leaving the military has to be tuned into a little bit. And, you know, the madness comparison may be a bit unfair, but I think you could see other senior leaders as well who step into senior corporate positions or senior government positions, they carry with them, that deference sort of unknowingly. I think I’ve sort of discovered my way through that. I present myself as such with the clients.

 

Loree:

Yeah. I think in the civilian world, there is not that natural acceptance that just because somebody is in charge means they know what they’re doing or that they’re the right person to be in charge. Whereas it definitely in the military that is kind of hammered in from day one, the chain of command, the hierarchy, the assumption of leadership, so yeah, definitely different.

 

Gene:

I’ve had a few lightbulb moments where I look at seniors presenting at an industry event, and I objectively conclude this person is fundamentally not qualified to be making the decisions that they’re charged with. That’s not the norm. I mean, if that’s an exception, but it exists and the system allows for that to happen. It’s just part of the rotation and the trying to build experience bases within government, you can get some people that get to positions where they just aren’t qualified for, and few people around them are able to tell them that. I personally love the freedom; I now have to call it as I see it. Fact based empirical information carries the day. And it’s not always that way. And in government and corporate, I love the entrepreneurial freedom that I have.

 

Loree:

So you know, we’re in very interesting times right now, obviously, with COVID-19. And as we’re talking, I’m looking out my window, I’m in Northern California, and the sky is orange right now, which is very unusual… what do you recommend for leaders in this time of COVID-19? Like, what do you see as the biggest challenges for businesses during this time? And how can leaders help overcome those challenges?

 

Gene:

Don’t wait. I can’t say that I saw this coming, I don’t think anybody could. And I can’t say that I saw what the timeline might be. But I spoke to all of my clients individually and together and said, don’t wait for the new normal, don’t wait for next normal, you need to adapt. Now. This is not going away quickly. So I had one client who had a largely a classroom sort of setting that required people to fly in to attend class. So you need to get online now. Like next week, it was tal to your web developer, let’s get the videos going. How do you transition now… And what you may find is that five years from now, you’re only doing online and the in person stuff, that’s a relic. Who knows that concept could be applied anywhere to anything.

 

My business today is largely about helping clients sell to the government, then my message has been consistent. The government apparatus is continuing. In the best of times, the worst of times. The example I’ve used this year is in the first six months, the Department of Defense spent $18 billion dollars a week, they’re just cranking along contracts are coming out. If you’re waiting, you’re getting steamrolled. And this is what innovation looks and feels like; there are those that are paralyzed, and there are those who are just steaming straight ahead. My overarching counsel is don’t sit, don’t be paralyzed, don’t wait, do something. You surprise yourself with where it takes you.

 

Loree:

Yeah, I would imagine your background with sailing and with reacting to you know, different emergencies, different things that happen different conditions that you’re constantly being faced with would really come in handy right now. Because you understand that things are always changing, and you have to be able to respond to those changes.

 

Gene:

We all have tools that we would fundamentally fall back on aviation or ships, and it might be a set of procedures or casualty response mechanisms or methodologies and training that we fall back on. So now in business, we do have a fundamental understanding of what we’re trying to achieve, we’re usually trying to help somebody with our product or service. And you just have to adapt that to the environment. You know, those that have studied strategy know that you look at your environment all the time. And that strategy should be something that is never sitting on a shelf, it’s always being re-evaluated over time. And you have to look at it as a continuous cycle. So I encourage anybody wondering what tomorrow brings? Don’t fret over it, just deal with it and move on.

 

Loree:

Yeah. Do you think that different situations require different types of leadership? Like is there do you think a situation like this, which is viewed more as a critical crisis kind of situation needs a different kind of leader than a business that’s, you know, going through a normal time? Not COVID-19?

 

Gene:

Yeah, and I think, again, looking at clients that I deal with today, some have very mature products that have been in place and in use for decades. And the need for those products likely isn’t going to change regardless of the environment. So they have one set of circumstances that they sort of understand and they can they can try to wring out, you know, all the inefficiency through whatever, you know, tool of the day that helps them do that.

 

Other companies who are developing capability or bringing new technology to the user, they have a different set of challenges. Not only do they have to develop the technology, but they have to help that potential customer recognize where the value is that that customer might not even see. In the case of a federal customer, that can be difficult. I say that federal customer isn’t one person; it’s a constellation of people. And so having that conversation takes a special level of effort. When you throw COVID, on top of that, and you can’t have face to face meetings, you know, getting the meeting, demonstrating a capability through zoom sometimes isn’t the same as showing it on a trade show floor. So you’re still trying to do the same kinds of things, but you have to use different tools.

 

So the longer answer to your question, you know, are there different methods required? For sure, I have another book that’s in motion that will come out in 2021. But it is about the concept of opening the right doors. And recognizing when there are doors to be open. I think it applies particularly well to those coming out of the military and into corporate and into their next career or careers. But I didn’t invent this. But fear is a very real thing that holds people back. It is unbelievable to me to see how fear holds people in position, and keeps them from changing and adapting and moving to a next higher level of whatever it is. And the most senior people are not immune to this. Some of them may suffer from it far more than they’ll ever admit. But when you can, when you can let go of fear, and just do what you want to do, you’d be shocked at how exponentially that thing can develop, regardless of what’s happening in our country today. Many of the fundamentals are so unique to this country, that allow for people to adapt for people to transform and develop and restart and do different things throughout their their life. But many people never get to experience that because there’s some fear holding them back. And we all want to say Well, I’m not fearful. But look, look closely. Oh, yeah. And, and there is, it is fear. And it can take many forms. It could be, you know, I can’t be without health care. Health benefits hold people in positions far longer than they want to stay. Fear of, will I get hired if I leave this job? Is there something else out there? What comparable to this fear of taking a dip and pay for in the short term in order to grow into the long term? It can take many, many forms. So to simply say, I’m not afraid. I think if people say that, initially before they really examine this, they may be missing more than they understand.