Are You a Pro at Giving AND Receiving Constructive Feedback? The Imperfections in Perfecting the Process with Successful Team Leader Jessica Jensen

John Brown is an experienced technology client manager and operations leader. He is the COO of ParkMobile LLC. Prior to ParkMobile, John served as Vice President of Customer Operations at Clutch Technologies, a software startup acquired by Cox Automotive. Previously, John held several roles in the fintech space, including President of US Operations for Cardlytics and leading a business unit at Fiserv. In addition, John was a consultant at McKinsey & Co. He began his career as an officer in the U.S. Navy aboard a nuclear submarine. 

In this episode, John shares his experience in years of leading operations and how he dealt with leadership setbacks.

Click to Read Transcript

Unknown Speaker 0:05
In this podcast, your host, Loree Draude, former Navy combat jet pilot with decades of experience leading teams in the Navy, and at Google, Facebook and Silicon Valley startups into stories about developing leaders and teams to reach peak performance. You’ll be inspired by World Class guests and learn strategies, tactics, the mindset and skill set needed. So you too, can develop supersonic leaders and teams. here’s your host, Loree droughty.

Loree Draude 0:40
So yeah, I’m here with john Brown, former classmate at Wharton. And so we got to go through business school together, john, you’re like one of my first friends at Business School, because we have the Navy connection. And even better than the Navy connection, we had the you used to be in a summary. And I used to fly jets that tried to find us submarines, and never were very successful at it. Thank goodness. So Loree, thank

John Brown 1:03
you for saying that. And it’s a great opening because I have a very important request for this podcast. Okay. So I’m glad you brought this up. In the beginning, your podcasts intro all the little zoomy noises of fighter jets zooming around, that’s that will be removed. What’s that crazy?

Unknown Speaker 1:21
Like? Like? Blue, blue, blue blue? instead? Or something like that?

Unknown Speaker 1:24
How about how about a sonar ping? Oh, we do that. with that.

Unknown Speaker 1:27
I wouldn’t have to see I will find something like that. I like it.

Unknown Speaker 1:31
I’m sure your audio engineer can make that happen. But zoomy jet noises I’m gonna have to resend my participation

Unknown Speaker 1:38
writing down sonar ping ad. Got it? Yay.

Unknown Speaker 1:44
I’ve been saving that comment ever since we decided to do this podcast. I’ve been saving that one up.

Unknown Speaker 1:50
Thank you. You know, I always love to ask leaders in the corporate world who have also served in the military about your experience and in the differences and how you viewed leadership as a leader in the civilian world versus what it was like when you were in the military? Do you see any major differences or similarities?

Unknown Speaker 2:09
I do, and I don’t. So this is the part that I think is absolutely the same. And it’s what a lot of people miss, I think in the corporate world, which is, and this is what the military actually does, I think pretty exceedingly well is that recognition. And acknowledgement is so much more powerful than anything else as a leader. Right. So like, you know, if you think about the military, your row of ribbons on your uniform, over your, over the heart. Yeah, exactly. You know, like, and we call that a fruit salad. Right? Yeah, all the color. This is a billion you look at that, and you go, what, what is all that stuff? Right? But you know, but if you’re in the military, it’s essentially a resume that you’re wearing on your uniform, in that recognition. And that kind of thing in the military, I think is done extremely well. And I think a lot of people miss in the corporate world is that is what a lot of people that you work with are thirsting for. So as a leader, you know, one of the things that I tell my managers all the time is, you know, this notion that we shouldn’t thank people for the basic work that they do is absolutely wrong. As a matter of fact, we should absolutely thank people for the basic work that we’re doing for a couple reasons. One, they want that acknowledgement way more than they want more pay down, right. If you asked me on the surface, they’ll say I want more money. Deep down, they want that more. But then the other piece of it is like we want to reinforce the behaviors that we want our associates to engage in on a daily basis, then we do that by telling them hey, I saw that you did this. And I know it’s part of your job. And you did it well. And I just want to say thank you for that. Right. Yeah. And so that’s the part to me, that is the same a universal human truth, you know, between the military and the, I’ll tell you, for me personally, the difference between the two, and this is probably one of the reasons I’m a civilian now versus staying in the Navy. The one thing that is a little bit different. And this is probably particular to the submarine force that I was a part of. So if you think about a submarine, right, it’s up to us a Silicon Valley technology word, it’s a platform, you know, that accomplishes certain things as a nice night. But the platform is a huge multi billion dollar asset, its main main job is to keep you alive. And so the part of the Navy that I was in was very focused on assets, sometimes to the detriment of people but because you know, it’s kind of important, right? If the asset doesn’t work, right, and it’s very easy for three things to go wrong inside of a submarine and then those three things go wrong, you’ve got a pretty big problem on your hands. So one thing I think the corporate world does a little bit different. And I think it a little bit better is it does tend to focus a little bit more on people and leadership issues. Whereas the part of the Navy that I was intended to focus on that a little bit less, although I’m told that that’s changed. I recently met a friend of mine who was a former, who stayed in the Navy after I was out is a former submarine CEO and he said this change the Little bit, they become a little bit more leadership focus. I think that’s, that’s a good thing. So I think you know, some things are universal truths that are the same. And then some things can be a little bit different, right? When the corporate world you have more money so you can pay for things like leadership coaches. Yeah. I don’t know if you know me, but

Unknown Speaker 5:17
you are so good. That was, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 5:23
If you need a leadership coach and your corporate world and you have money, I would highly recommend Loree drowning people

Unknown Speaker 5:30
who are listening. Thanks, john. Appreciate that.

Unknown Speaker 5:35
That was a really long answer your question? No,

Unknown Speaker 5:37
no, but that’s great. I completely agree. I used to get very frustrated with some of my peers who felt like when people do their jobs, that’s expected and they shouldn’t be thanked for just doing their jobs. And I do agree that I think most people really crave that they want to be seen, and they want to be heard, and they want to know that what they’re doing matters. And even if it’s their job, I think it’s still important to recognize that couldn’t

Unknown Speaker 5:59
agree more. And I tell my managers that. And people are surprised to hear me say that. But I truly believe that you do. You need to acknowledge people for the basics of what they’re doing now. And they go above and beyond, you know, you can do more. Right? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 6:12
Cool. So let’s go back in time, just a little bit to young john Brown. And so we’ll go back in time, a little bit to young john Brown. And I’m curious about when you first realized in your younger years that you can influence people to take action to do something and you know, hopefully good. But you know, any kind of influence as a leader? When did you first when were you first aware of that?

Unknown Speaker 6:37
Does it have to be good? absolute requirement for the answer?

Unknown Speaker 6:42
No, it’s not. No, actually.

Unknown Speaker 6:44
Alright, say to be serious for a second, I gave this question. Actually, a lot of thought, you know, I don’t know that I pictured myself as certainly any kind of business leader or corporate leader until probably after Business School, relatively late in life. Yeah, I just, I don’t know, that was kind of my, my thing. You know, when I was in high school, or as a kid, like, I always thought I was gonna grow up to be a scientist, because I just really enjoyed science. So yeah, you know, get me going have a conversation about like, you know, astronomy, I’d love to, you know, have that conversation. I actually majored in physics in college. And so like, I just kind of dig that sort of stuff. And so that’s kind of where I thought I was going. But then, you know, my parents really encouraged me to join the Navy ROTC program, which is kind of I got a little bit of a taste of leadership there. And I would tell you, I look back on my time as an officer in the Navy and say, you know, I don’t know that I was all that great of a manager or leader, right. But you know, what, one thing I tell people a lot is, you can take out, you know, if you wind up in a leadership role, almost accidentally, which can happen sometimes, you know, sometimes if you take a break from that and reflect on it for a few years, you come back around to it later, and you go, Oh, you know, here’s all the stuff that I did wrong. And so, you know, after Business School, long story short, I wound up kind of running. After a stint at McKinsey, I round up running a business unit for a large technology company. And when I did that, I, when I took the role, I immediately said to myself, I’m going to be a way better manager and leader this time, right. And because it was first time, I’d manage people in a while, and it was in my, you know, early 30s. And I really just kind of started studying the topic. So like, I really just tried to be a student of the game. Right. And so I started reading a lot of books. And, and I certainly be happy to talk about some of those. And some of them were pretty influential for me. And I started studying like, how do you be a good business leader, a good manager, and I think, you know, you can get better, right, and I feel like I got a lot better quickly, you know, by doing that, and the team and so I could naturally, you know, try out some of my ideas, and I’ve learned a trick or two, since then. So I do you know, now I very much consider myself to be in that mold of a, you know, business executive, but I, it took me a little longer. I tell people all the time, like, you know, a lot of people work for me that are in their 20s. And I’m like, you don’t have to know what you’re going to be when you grow up. When you’re like 24 Trust me, like, no, right? Yeah, yeah. I listened to a podcast with your dad. And I was thinking about this question. And he talked about how he wanted to be a marine when he was 18. And I’m like, my goodness, how do you be that? Have your act together? That Oh, yeah. even younger, I

Unknown Speaker 9:15
think. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Like your whole life ahead of you. Just I think some people it just somehow grabs them so strongly that they just that is it. It just encompasses all of their values. And that you know, who they want to be and what they want to do, and

Unknown Speaker 9:33
oh, no, I was just gonna say like, he has his act. So together, I was like, oh, my goodness, compete with this, like, I don’t listen to anymore. Are you gonna say,

Unknown Speaker 9:43
No, no, he is amazing. He’s obviously a huge role model for me. No, he, I don’t think I ever told you the story. And I can’t remember if he and I talked about it on the podcast, but I remember him telling me about being a I think it was during his plebe year at the Naval Academy. You know, he’s getting PT pretty heavily in physical training for Yes. Oh, thank you. I’m so glad to speak military. And the upperclassman, who was, you know, making him work said, you know, how do you Why do you want to be a marine? You know, why do you want to waste your potentials and rain when you could be a naval officer? And my dad said something to the fact of, you know, sir, I’d rather be a private in the Marine Corps than that the Chief of Naval Operations. And so he got a lot more PT after that.

Unknown Speaker 10:32
And deservedly so I would say would be my, my response to that,

Unknown Speaker 10:36
you know, but it’s the Navy Marine Corps team, though, right? We should be. So yes,

Unknown Speaker 10:40
it is. Absolutely. I said, with a love in the world. Because my, my brother was a marine. And, you know, I know tons of people who were in the service. And I’ll tell you, you know, one observation that I have also is, you know, I managed to quite a few people who were in the service after me, and certainly Afghanistan and Iraq. And, and, you know, those are just some of the best people that I’ve ever worked with. And, surprisingly, the most entrepreneurial, yeah. Right. Because, like, build a schoolhouse in Afghanistan, there’s no, there’s no army manual tells you how to do that. Right. Right. Right. Oh, there. It’s, uh, I would say the service members who are coming out recently, or you even way better than the ones when I think you and I were in?

Unknown Speaker 11:21
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. They get stuff done. It’s awesome. So you mentioned books, I’d love to hear about like, what are some of your favorite books about leadership? Or, or movies are like, what do you tend to go back to look at when you’re needing some inspiration?

Unknown Speaker 11:35
You know, movies are thought of I’m trying to think of movies. I don’t know what I’ll talk about some of my favorite kind of leadership and management books but movies, maybe Glengarry Glen Ross, I don’t

Unknown Speaker 11:47
know that’s not a good

Unknown Speaker 11:50
people. That’s not always

Unknown Speaker 11:50
be closing.

Unknown Speaker 11:54
coffee’s for closers. That’s right now, I’ll tell you, I’ll give you a list of a few books that I think very highly of. The first is a book and slash, podcast, slash consultancy. And the book. And this is kind of my go to for management, if you will, which what I call management, I think is what other people call leadership, but leave those distinctions aside for a second, but it’s called the effective manager. And it’s by a guy named Mark horseman, who is a former Army officer coincidentally, and he has a consultancy called manager tools, you can look at it online manager dash And the core of their kind of what they teach. And I, I’ve been using it for years, I actually tripped over it accidentally, when I first got an iPod, I was just looking for podcasts. And these guys have a pair of gentlemen, they have a series of free podcasts where they basically release all their content for free, right, and they teach you how to be a good manager. And it’s kind of a relentless focus on four things, one on ones, feedback, coaching and delegation, right. And their point is, like, Look, there’s, there’s a mountain of books out there about management, they’ve distilled it down into do these four things well, and you’ll probably be better than 95% of most managers out there. Now, they have a ton of other content as well, I mean, literally years worth, and you guys can go look at that. But if you want a distillation book, that book, the effective manager really tells you what to do as a manager. And once you the reason I recommend it to a lot of new managers is once you get confidence doing those things, well, then you can ascend up of I don’t know Maslow’s hierarchy of management, or whatever, you know, into being, you know, more of a self assured leader, right, get the basics down where you’re comfortable in the role, like, and I think, you know, that’s, that’s one problem with management is no, you know, I spent a lot of time teaching my managers how I want them to manage and I use that framework. But nobody’s teaching management in corporate America as a skill and it is a skill that you need to have now to, you know, bit larger corporate leadership is is maybe more talents than skills. But that’s where I start. My next favorite is another book called first break all the rules, which are famous for pretty famous management book that was a study commissioned by Gallup that talks about how to think about managing people who, you know, bring a certain set of talents to the role. So that’s kind of another that’s probably my second favorite book. And then a couple others that I always recommend are Five Dysfunctions of a team. If you’re a leader manager, and you need to run a team that’s a that’s a really good thing to know. Another favorite of mine is course here’s the military connection again, it’s your ship. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 14:36
I don’t think I’ve heard of that one.

Unknown Speaker 14:36
Yeah, it’s it’s reasonably well known book. It’s by a Navy captain who ran a Aegis destroyer and and he’s one of the better ship captains in the Navy and just has a lot of really kind of great leadership lesson. So it was kind of recommend that one as well. And then and then I tend to also recommend a bunch of Ken Blanchard books, like one minute manager and Who Moved My Cheese and some of those, you know, these are all books that are Little bit technically, that’s kind of you know how to, but it’s like if you can’t be a good man comfortable being a people leader, and willing to do those kinds of things, you’re never gonna grow. You’re comfortable being a people manager, you’re never gonna grow yourself to being a people leader. Yeah, right. And so, so I tend to be a little bit kind of skills focus when it comes to that. Awesome. Well, speaking

Unknown Speaker 15:19
of books, you are an author, and I’d love to hear you. This is the most interesting title of a book, a dragon walks into a meeting. So I, I’d love to know.

Unknown Speaker 15:30
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I couldn’t bear the thought of not having a book when you already have an excellent book. Oh, thank

Unknown Speaker 15:41

Unknown Speaker 15:42
I will no mention to your readers as as being go go look it up, go buy it on Amazon. It’s a fantastic book about the early days of integrating women into naval aviation. And so I highly, highly recommended. My book was, yeah, a dragon walks into a meeting. So what it is, is, it’s a book about account management, so distinct from the field of sales, per se, but kind of what how you manage clients after the sale. And the reason that my co author and I wrote it is, you know, if you think about it, particularly the technology company, and I hope you have some listeners who are in Silicon Valley, and can relate to this, but if you think about a technology company, I mean, it’s a good chance that like five to seven ish percent of their workforce are account managers of some sort people managing the business to business relationships with their clients, right. And it’s kind of this weird niche of business that nobody ever really talks about. I mean, they, I mean, most business schools barely talk about sales, which is a huge oversight in and of itself. But then like this sub niche of account management, like how you manage clients after the sale, nobody ever talks about that, right? And so like, if you go on Amazon, and you type in account management books, you’re not gonna find that many, most of them, they’re out there really directed towards the CEO about how to create, like, an account management team. And so we, my co author, and I, he ran an account team for me in a previous role. And so we got together and basically took all of the decks that we had written, like teaching the account team of like how to do X, Y, or Z, you know, how to present a quarterly business review how to kick off a meeting, how to manage a client for growth, like all these sort of how to things. And we just said, you know, we could we could make a book out of all these. And so we did. And we it’s, we think it’s different, because it’s pointed towards, really, I would say the target is somebody who’s maybe a little bit of a newer account manager. And most people who become account managers, particularly in technology companies, they came from somewhere else like nobody, this isn’t a career path. Anybody graduates high school, you know, college, I’m going to be an account manager. You know, usually they come from development or operations, or some other part of the business and like, nobody ever tells them. Well, here’s how you do it. So to talk about how to do it,

Unknown Speaker 17:56
that is so cool. And I’m the dragon part.

Unknown Speaker 18:00
Oh, well, that’s not obvious. So it’s the book starts out with a story of a client that my co author and I met with who came into a meeting and turns into the dragon like he starts breathing fire and all this sort of so the story is, basically he came in the meeting and like we go, we go through the whole pitch deck of like, here’s where we’re at. Here’s what we’re doing with you guys. And everything is good. Okay. Yeah. Great. Everything. Okay. Yeah, great. This is great. And we’re literally about to say, about to wrap up the meeting and leave, and he slams his hands on the table and says, this sucks. This literally screamed at us right now, my co author will tell you he practically dove under the table. I just looked at the guy because I’m like, okay, really? Like I guess it’s the Navy thing. I’m like, Alright, whatever. So anyway, he’s the Dragon of the story. So that’s why a dragon walks into a meeting. Yeah. What’s the name of something catchy?

Unknown Speaker 18:58
No. And the illustration on the cover is fantastic. So is the book available on Amazon or where can people

Unknown Speaker 19:06
buy it is it’s on Amazon, some other bookstores but yes, go to Amazon and please, if you run an account management function in a technology company or you are an account manager and technology company this this book is for you because it’s it’s all about the basics. So hopefully please go buy it and if you enjoy it, please leave us a review. They make great Christmas gifts. stocking stuffers. Instead of Halloween this year by case did not as candy. Arbor Day, Fourth of July. I think I can think of a lot of occasions where you may want to have this book on your bookshelf so

Unknown Speaker 19:39
there’s so many made up holidays now there’s probably like a national dragon day or something too.

Unknown Speaker 19:43
So you know you’re logged into Amazon get to for go get buy a bunch of copies of she’s just another Navy pilot and dragon walks into a meeting give them out as his gifts. Hanukkah. Great. Both are great for any occasion.

Unknown Speaker 20:00
Yeah, I can’t wait. I wonder if Amazon’s gonna, you know, pick this up and be like, bought together, you know how when you

Unknown Speaker 20:12
bought Together Together?

Unknown Speaker 20:13
Yeah, that’s good.

Unknown Speaker 20:14
And then you’re also doing a podcast?

Unknown Speaker 20:17
Yes, it’s a companion to the book, it’s where essentially, we’re laser focused on just kind of account management. And we’re going through the chapters of the book. So if you’re not of a mind by the book, you can listen to the podcast and kind of pick up tips from the both of us. And then we’re also as part of that podcast, interviewing real life account managers who do this every day job to kind of get their points of view. So I think that’s going to be good for people. But there’s one secret to account management we’re leaving out is in the book, but not the podcast. So you will fail as an account manager by the book. So okay, No, I’m just kidding. That’s a joke. Like I said, People know, now we’re going through the parts of the book, and it’s just meant to be a companion piece so that people can, you know, kind of get more of our thinking.

Unknown Speaker 21:05
Excellent. Very cool. What’s the best leadership advice you’ve ever been given?

Unknown Speaker 21:10
Yeah, find a parade and get in front of it.

Unknown Speaker 21:14
Like the rocket ship,

Unknown Speaker 21:16
right now, I that’s my joke answer, which I guess that’s a theme, I’m going to give you the funny answer and try to be more serious after that. But you try to summarize into one sentence, which is, I think maybe the the point of the question is, because to me, it’s such a, it’s such a very topic, you could talk about it for hours. To me, it’s about always run towards the fire. Right? Yeah. Like, that’s the leadership advice that I give a lot of people right. So, you know, I know that. And what I mean by that is, at the end of the day, it’s about ownership as a leader and a manager, right? So like, you know, the people that work for me, I tell them all the time, like you won’t get in trouble with me if something is done incorrectly, right? Because we can learn from that, and we’ll study and we’ll, we’ll do it correctly going forward. Or if you or you lose a client, or, you know, I mean, these are things that happen, where people get in trouble with me is if they don’t have ownership of the problem, right? So that that’s kind of what I mean by always run towards the fire, right? Like, it’s, you know, you don’t have the ownership if you say, well, that’s not my problem, or it’s somebody else’s role, or something like that, that that’s where people will get in trouble with me. But like things going wrong, particularly in any kind of operational role. I mean, things always go wrong, statistically, they have to go wrong, right, like, so they are going to go wrong, and how you how you react to that is really important, being calm and thoughtful. And this is maybe speaks back a little bit to the submarine thing, right? So, you know, when you’re on a submarine, I mean, that’s not just figuratively true, but literally true, you need to run towards the fire. Right? Because if you have a fire on a submarine, it’s like a 10,000 times worse than any other kind of fire because you’re in a, you know, pretty enclosed environment. Right? So run towards the fire.

Unknown Speaker 23:10
Yeah. Got it. Do you think your definition of a good leader has changed over time?

Unknown Speaker 23:16
Yeah, I thought about this question quite a bit. I don’t think my definition of a good leader has changed. What I think has changed is probably I’m much more willing to view leaders as fallible humans, right? Like I’m much more forgiving of probably myself and other leaders that I know, when I realized that, you know, no matter how big of a chair, you sit, and the person that’s sitting in that chair is just a person who has flaws, and is not perfect. And but as long as you have a point of view, I will do better tomorrow than I did today on whatever this is, I think you’ll you’ll be okay. But I I think I’m much more forgiving. Certainly myself. And maybe that’s why I’m viewed myself as a leader late and later in life is so so my view of it is probably expanded to realize that most leaders are just flawed humans. And so that that I think has changed with me my definition of what makes a good leader hasn’t changed. And I like your dad’s definition from the podcast about, you know, I don’t care what you know, I want to know that you care, right? Yeah. And so to me, a leader is somebody that first and foremost uses their relationship power with others, you know, versus their role power, their knowledge power, right. And that’s, to me the definition of a leader. But no, my definition hasn’t changed. But my willingness to accept all of our shared flaws as humans is definitely ground.

Unknown Speaker 24:39
Yeah. Can you remember when we are ansons? How scary even like a commander was, right? I mean, now I think, Oh, my God commanders like what early 40s and early 40s. I’m older than that. But, yeah, coming into that realization that they’re human beings with challenges. And faults, you know, like everybody, right? When you’re younger or when you’re less experienced, I

Unknown Speaker 25:05
think it is really easy to kind of put them on a pedestal like oh my god, they know everything. So, you know, I had a speaking of commanders that a commander at our ROTC unit who taught a leadership class is really great. And one of his big things was, Hey, remember when you’re talking to senior leaders that you’re working with? Like, you know, they can be intimidating? Because they mean, in the military, they’ve ranked on their shoulders for rehlat, right? Like, it’s, but they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you. Right? What he would say? Yeah. And I thought, wow, I thought maybe they jumped off the bed and did both. Yes. Turns out they don’t do that. So. So I think there’s an important lesson there for leaders like you have to be able to forgive yourself when when you mess up. But also, when you look at those that are when you’re younger, and you look at those that are senior, you didn’t need to and I wish I’d done a better job of this realizing, you know, they’re they’re flawed people too. And they don’t always get it right.

Unknown Speaker 25:58
So when you’ve had challenges as a leader, where do you derive strength to deal with those challenges? Yeah. Tiki Bar.

Unknown Speaker 26:08
Well, I was gonna start with heavy heavy drinking. Yeah, it’s really Lori’s referring to there is I can’t even believe I would admitting this on a podcast but I have in my basement. I’ve built a I didn’t build it, but I had a bar built and it’s like a tiki bar. So that’s awesome. That’s it, you should know during Coronavirus that had nothing to do but just add more junk to it. So

Unknown Speaker 26:32
I’ve seen your post on Instagram. That you’re incredibly creative with the mix ology So

Unknown Speaker 26:37
did you see the drink I named after you?

Unknown Speaker 26:39
Yes, I did. I love that.

Unknown Speaker 26:41
Yeah. What was your callsign? Now you have to remind me

Unknown Speaker 26:44
is rowdy. I thought

Unknown Speaker 26:45
it was rowdy. Yeah, like you’re trying to not admitted, but it was rowdy. Rowdy. I thought I named the drink. Rowdy. droughty. And so if you want to see it go on Instagram. I think my handle on Instagram was john Jax Brown, you can check out the rowdy droughty a drink just for Loree. Important. What was the question? Why were we talking? I know. I don’t remember talking about drinking.

Unknown Speaker 27:06
No. driving straight. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker 27:09
I’ll give the that my serious answer. Your question is, and this is why it’s so important to have a good relationship with your team, as a leader managers, you really need to draw it from those around you, right? Because leadership roles, depending on the size and scope of what you manage, can be very isolating. Right, like, yeah, you know, if you think about the CEO of a large corporation, or anybody’s the head of anything like the you know, that’s it, the adage of it’s lonely at the top is true, right. And so like, if you don’t have that strong relationship with those that are surrounding you that you’re helping to lead, it could very much be lonely and isolating. But if you do have those relationships, you know, they will support you in moments where you have doubt and crisis. And and so that’s one of the reasons why that’s so important. So I think all the great leaders that I known, had derived strength, you know, from their teams, and that’s what I did, too. And that might be a trite answer. But I do genuinely den genuinely believe that.

Unknown Speaker 28:03
Yeah, fantastic.

Unknown Speaker 28:04
Well, the only notion I would leave your listeners with, and I talked about this a lot in the book that I wrote, because it’s true for client relationships. And it’s really true for management and leadership relationships, as well. And so a lot of your previous podcasts have touched on this as well, because it’s just such a universal truth is like, to me leadership. And management is mostly about building trust, right? Because if you think about it, you know, for those of us in the business world, if you think about any business transaction that happens ever underlying that is a foundation of trust, right? And those business transactions can be with outside parties. But you think about the most of the business transactions you’re doing all day long. They’re actually internal. Right? And so, you know, and I wouldn’t try to tell you that I’ve always been perfect on this. And nobody ever is. But I think if you can just kind of keep your brain as a leader focused on how do I build trust with others? You’ll probably do. All right. That’s really the number one.

Unknown Speaker 28:57
Yeah, well, it’s interesting. You mentioned the Five Dysfunctions of a team. I think that’s like the very first layer is making sure that you trust one another. And building that trust among the team is super important for the leader. And I love asking those questions like when we’d have a manager meeting, ask the questions about like, tell us about your childhood, you know, when you’re growing up, because it’s really interesting to hear about people’s backgrounds. They’re really diverse. And I think it’s, it helps to create that familiarity and that, that trust when you know a little bit more about somebody where they’re coming from.

Unknown Speaker 29:33
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like, and this is something I think all companies and all of us could do better is like you know, just working on things to build that trust is so much more impactful than anything else that you can then you can do together as a team because you can you can just accomplish so much if you don’t have to worry about those kinds of issues. And I’ve been parts of, you know, leadership teams that had lots of trust and I can see just how on fire we were because of that I’ve been parts of leadership team, and I’m sure every listener, and you have all been on these kinds of teams as well, where you don’t have that and just how corrosive and awful it is. And so like I, you know, I view a lot of my role as leaders trying to get to build that between myself and the people that report to me, and then try to also build it between all of them. Right. And so if you do that, well, you know, you probably don’t need a consultancy, to give you a strategy, right? Like you, if you can figure that part out. Your company will almost organically come up with a strategy that works for you as a team. Right, you know, but it’s kind of a soft thing. And I think most companies under investment.

Unknown Speaker 30:42
Yeah, it’s interesting, um, Google did a survey of like, their top performing teams, and the number one factor you probably, yeah, yeah, trust, like psychology. Is that

Unknown Speaker 30:54
what? That’s exactly right. Because if you trust each other, you’re going to get all the best ideas on the table, the team is going to be so much more functional. Yeah. Any you know, you think about Google. I mean, that’s about as hardcore an engineering organization, you know, as exists out there. And for them to come up with that very kind of soft notion is the number one I thought was very telling when they came out with that study. It’s very influential. I mean, even I know I’m in Atlanta, and that’s probably to you the sticks. United States. We have the internet out here. And we I have in fact, study

Unknown Speaker 31:24
running water to That’s crazy. We’ve got

Unknown Speaker 31:26
Well, how else would I run a bar? If I was running water for the bar? We have the internet. Yeah, it’s good stuff out

Unknown Speaker 31:33
here. Very funny. Cool. Very funny. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 31:38
you’re done. You’re done. We’re

Unknown Speaker 31:39
done here. Okay. Well, we actually are done. But I, oh, my gosh, this is so awesome. Yeah, how much fun? It has, and I can’t wait until you know the time when I can actually come back out. And visit the Tiki Bar and have you make my signature drink that that’s going to be loved. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 31:56
I would love to make your signature drink. And I know that will happen one day soon, and I’m excited to do it.

Unknown Speaker 32:02
Cool. Well, thanks, john. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast today. And I can’t I’m definitely gonna go buy a copy of a dragon walks into a meeting so I can learn more about good account management and recommend it to my friends who are account managers. And yeah, thanks again.

Unknown Speaker 32:18
No, thank you so much. This is so much fun, and I really enjoyed it.

Unknown Speaker 32:24
And that’s it. For today’s episode, head on over to iTunes and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every week who posts a review on iTunes. We’ll be entered into the grand prize drawing to be Loree’s VIP guests at San Francisco’s Fleet Week where they’ll experience and exhilarating performance from the Blue Angels flight demonstration team. Be sure to head on over to supersonic show comm and pick up a copy of Loree’s free gift and join us on the next episode.

Transcribed by